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Permsteading.com • View topic - a new heater design possibility ???

a new heater design possibility ???

Rocket Mass Heaters, Rocket Ovens, Cold boxes, Solar collectors, etc..
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Re: a new heater design possibility ???

Postby matt walker » Sat Dec 07, 2013 2:03 am

Cool Hagrid! Thanks for the update, let us know how it all works for you.

I have to admit I disagree with the mix advice, but I sure do love the spirit in which it was offered. If you use that mix, please keep us posted.
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Re: a new heater design possibility ???

Postby smallhagrid » Sun Dec 15, 2013 2:37 am

Hi Folks.
I got really lucky and was able to have a good, long talk via phone with Kevin Bacon today.

After explaining a little better what I'm up to, he revised his recommendation for sticking my bricks together.

Rather than what I posted from him earlier - he said he would use that only for filling in between the stuff I leveled the base with.

In between the bricks - which are all straight up stacked - he suggested either a 'slip' made of clay with some mortar added, or to leave out the mortar altogether.

What he explained is that in his opinion what my heater needs the most is grouting as opposed to hugely strong joints.
In his opinion the clay will do this quite well and be simplest of all.

He also suggested that in areas where I might wish to add substance or insulation - that his original idea would work well.

I prefer keeping things simple.
The way I see this, worst case would be that I'd either have to patch it up or do it over after using it for a few months...

So - given my poor drawing skills, the next thing I need to do is to sit myself down & carefully diagram how I stacked this so as to be able to build it up again whilst sticking it together.

I also need to fabricate it's outlet adapter and a thingy™ for putting in the window for it's exhaust to exit from unobtrusively.

Phew.
This sounds like alot.

Must be bedtime...so Thanks, and Good Night !!!

PS:
Please holler at me if'n this all seems like a bad idea; as I know so little about building stacks of bricks compared to others.
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Re: a new heater design possibility ???

Postby matt walker » Sun Dec 15, 2013 5:26 pm

I'm so glad to hear you got to speak with him, and I agree about the slip. I would say definitely don't use the mortar at all, it will just harden up and fail in the expansion/contraction cycles. Sounds like your plan is coming together Hagrid, I'm excited for you.
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The journey from possibility to reality...

Postby smallhagrid » Wed Dec 18, 2013 2:21 am

Is now alot closer !!

Got my act together a bit - sat down with paper/pen to make a crude sketch with my shaky hands - found batteries and got some pics of the stacked together hodgepodge that it has been up 'till now.

Be warned - the pics are the best I could get and they ain't great.
(Please ignore the funky flex tubing as I had no place to stash it out of view ?!?)
Perhaps they'll suffice in explaining the idea a little bit just the same.

The bricks are presently very crudely stacked, not tight and very unlevel besides.
The temporary top thrown on before of the 2 kiln-ends is removed so the 'guts' can be photographed.
Once leveled & stuck together I'll likely add on straps made from that holey metal 'plumber's tape' around the outside for added strength & tightness.
(I may also add on some kind of other supports at the sides if it strikes me as being tippy, sometime later on.)

That having been said - here we go...:

Best I could grab of it from the front=>
Image

Another front shot in case it helps somehow...:
Image

The room is too small for my crummy camera !!!
This is most of a side view=>
Image

Here's the rest of it, I hope:
Image

Looking down inside it from over the top=>
Image

And finally, as close as I could get of the back/exit:
Image

It is close to the wall as I anticipate low exhaust temp and can easily make provisions to protect the wall if this is incorrect to any serious degree (pun intended !!).

I plan to cement in a chunk of stovepipe as the exit from the bricks and after it sets up a bit and I do some real test burns I will finalize whatever gets the exhaust to the outside whether it be the flex pipe or some stovepipe - only time will tell...

The very top will be covered with bricks and likely (eventually ??) with some insulating glop around the edges where the bricks will have little ledges left over at the sides. (I am uncomfortable with the silly kiln-ends as a top and hopefully have enough bricks without doing anything too strange...)

That's how it stands right now and with the temp here in Vermont in the single digits it will be quite welcome to have this done & making heat for sure.

Best Wishes to All !!!
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Re: a new heater design possibility ???

Postby matt walker » Wed Dec 18, 2013 5:19 pm

Nice to see you making progress Hagrid. It certainly looks like you've been busy!
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Re: a new heater design possibility ???

Postby smallhagrid » Wed Dec 25, 2013 4:40 am

Howdy Folks.
Call me crazy if you want to - but I've not been able to bring myself to stick those really terrific, expensive, irreplaceable (for me) bricks together in any permanent way.

There's an aspect of projects for me that is sort of like a need to have it feel right - and until something does feel right I just wait and see what thoughts come to me about it...which is what's happened here.

So having said that - here's the deal with this design, for me=>
It is very tall and narrow, requires a large number of (expensive if bought new) firebricks, and due to neighbor problems there is no good place here for me to rough it out and test it to my full satisfaction before committing resources which I simply cannot duplicate if I ruin them.

The final piece for me is that no matter how many times I look at it and try to see it living in that small space - it is too big and a poor fit for it.

Since this 'mulling over' period began I also ran into the wonderful videos made by Pekka Leskela (http://www.youtube.com/channel/UC7ElEYx ... SMg/videos) as well as one about a 20-gallon RMH.

In particular, here are 2 that really grabbed me:




And here's that 20-gallon idea:


Here is yet another idea which is very lacking in exact build details:

What struck me about that idea is it seems to be set into a small metal box and uses a big pot for the barrel part - very small, but quite functional still.

So here's where my head is at right now...
Until I can positively verify that the Omega design made all of bricks is absolutely as it needs to be for indoor usage - it is on indefinite hold.

I really, seriously think well of Pekka Leskela's box + box type idea, which is both small and uses little materials to make.

And silliest of all, having watched that 20-gallon thing I am once again thinking that in order for me to be both at comfort AND to get this doggone thing DONE & in use, I need to slap one together from sacrificial materials that I already have on hand.

As of right now that seems to be one which I'll mold from old stovepipe surrounded by mortar/perlite mix, the new stovepipes I bought for making a heat riser, the 30-gallon steel barrel I've got, and the old bricks from the kiln which can be mangled up any old way and I'll be fine with that.
Likely I will buy some plain old bricks to top off the tiles for the stove base, but they are very cheap so that's OK for me.

The J-tube type design is very well tried and if it disappoints me then I can tear it down without any remorse at all.
(I do still lean strongly towards wanting a fully horizontal burn tunnel and that is nagging at me...)

Later, when I can arrange to get my better/newer stuff all assembled and tested to a positive outcome outdoors somehow (like maybe NEXT year in the warmer months...) I will be OK to risk those materials on a final build of this design.

Sorry if I'm driving anyone crazy with my thought processes here; it is just that in this situation this needs to be right on the very 1st shot so it needs to be tried & true & simple (and not as tall as I am either !!!).

Thanks for being patient with me and Best Wishes to All.
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Re: a new heater design possibility ???

Postby DevilsBrew » Thu Dec 26, 2013 12:31 am

It's cool. I like this stuff. Pekka is fun. I have been watching his videos forever. I caught the square brick build when it first came out. I think the wire is a neat trick for outside cooking.
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Re: a new heater design possibility ???

Postby matt walker » Thu Dec 26, 2013 6:13 pm

I think it's great that you are having fun exploring the possibilities. I'd recommend you build a tried and true heater and save the experiments for outside, but you really should build whatever makes you happy. That said, I love Pekka's experiments, they are a lot of fun. Keep at it Hagrid!
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Re: a new heater design possibility ???

Postby pa_friendly_guy » Thu Dec 26, 2013 6:38 pm

That very good advise Matt. We have had enough learning experiences for now. ;) Since you have limited recourses you should use them on something that you know will work to keep you warm this winter. Just one Mans humble opinion. :lol:
Never doubt that a small group of dedicated people can change the world, indeed it is the only thing that ever has.
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